Season 5 Episode 3: 'The best ideas are organic' Ally Mitchell and Anna Campbell-Jones chat to us about their incredible collaboration ‘Ocean Swallows’

Hello and welcome to Buying and Beyond, the podcast that takes you behind the scenes of retail buying. We're Kate and Linz and together we have over 30 years experience in retail. We're talking all things retail buying and beyond with real people in retail. This season we're joined by more guests, retail buyers, retail businesses, big and small, telling us their stories, how they got started and what inspires and excites them about retail. We lift the lid on what brands need and buyers expect. So grab your drink of choice and come and have a giggle with us. joined by Ali Mitchell, founder of Ocean Plastic Pots, a brand that's doing amazing work using recycled plastic found in the ocean. Also joining us today is Anna Campbell-James, an award winning interior designer and presenter of Scottish Home of the Year. Together, they're both here to talk about their collaboration of an amazing new Swallow's wall decoration range. And we're going to hear all about the inspiration behind this collection. But first, hi, Ali. Hi, Anna. Thanks for joining us. Hello. Morning. Thank you for having me. No, probably not. So shall we dive straight into, Ali, do want to give us a bit of a background on your business and how it got started and your fantastic story behind it? Yeah, sure. So I was a commercial diver offshore for 14 years, thereabouts. Dived all over Scotland. And then during lockdown, I got a phone call to join the salvage operation of a ship called the MV Cami that ran aground off north of the Isle of Skye. And it was carrying 2,000 tonnes of waste plastic effectively. And so I then spent six weeks during lockdown diving in waste plastic and stopping it going into the sea. Yeah, my grandparents are from the Hebrides. They're from Lewis. Oh, I'd never really seen ocean plastic. They threatened somewhere that I'd loved before. But to see it in person, I is quite an eye opener. Yeah, it was. And we've all got these retirement plans when we don't have to work anymore and mine were to go up to the Hebrides and kick about beaches. so to see that waste somewhere where I plan to take my grandkids was quite profound. Yeah. And so basically I went home from that job with a pickup truck at the time. I filled it with beach plastic and I started a trial and error. And basically my kitchen and then we progressed to my shed to make a plant pot. I had this idea to turn the waste, we took over two lorryloads of rope off that boat as well as waste plastic and I had this idea to turn waste plastic, rope and fish net, ocean plastic into plant pots which took a negative for the environment and turned it into a positive. But it was only ever an idea and it was only ever a hobby and it started and we spent about six months trialling and failing and then we finally made a very small five centimeter plant pot and we were quickly invited to sell them at Leith Food Market in Edinburgh. So we spent about a week making about 50 of them and we sold out in about an hour, an hour and a half. at that point, really. So I now understand that was like proof of concept. So what we'd created was proof of concept and then validated the idea. But at the time, it was just good fun. So we sold them with herbs. And from there, we got onto this message of you could see some of the plastic we'd picked off the beach. I did it with my children. in the pots that we'd made and that visual storytelling was really important. And so from there, we progressed and we progressed quite quickly. ended up, we reached the limits of some of the equipment that we had ourselves. So we went and met a product design company in Glasgow who introduced us to our factory in the borders, an injection molding factory. And we took a massive gamble and invested in a large injection molding tool that would make the first plant pot commercially on commercial scale. So when we mold ourselves, we can only do small numbers. But when you go up to volume manufacturing, you've got different challenges, but you can do thousands. And then from there, we quickly launched the first plant pot in the world from 100 % rope and fishing net. And then the business just started and took off from there. Quickly after that, we won product of the year at Chelsea Flea Show. We won Scottish Edge, which is Britain's largest entrepreneurship competition. And then we went on to design and make a plant pot for Bloom and Wild, Bloom and Wild Europe, Europe's largest cut flower supplier. We co-branded a product for Waitrose and we were 20 months from standing on a market stall in Leith. To having a product co-branded with Waitrose on the shelves. Wow. I mean, yeah, that is, yeah. the growth there and the kind of the take up of it, as you say, complete proof of concept and really quick, you you have some businesses that work for years and years before they kind of like get that bite. Yeah, fantastic. What was it that, that inspired it to be pots that you wanted to make the garden pots? My wife was a really keen gardener. And we as a family, so my children are now seven and 10 at the time they were four and six. And we grew plants on the windowsill in our kitchen, like all families do, plants, and particularly during lockdown. And I understood you couldn't recycle a black plastic plant pot because of the color. So in recycling plants, they use PIR sensors to detect plastic, and black can't be detected. It's the same reason you can't. It's difficult to take a photograph on a plain black background because the light sensors don't detect it. And then we had all this waste material that was nice bright colors that wasn't black and could be recycled again. So if we took that waste and turned it into a plant pot, it takes a negative for the environment, it into a positive, but it's also a perfect circular economy. So our products are recycled in the UK, manufactured in Scotland, and can be recycled again into another ocean plastic pot. It's a lovely story as well that it continues to grow. We've made a plant that you're planting something from a real beginning and then seeing that bloom. So not only you turning something quite circular and taking a waste product, you're then also growing something completely fresh and completely new too. I love that. Yeah, thank you. And so we all talk about this transition and journey to net zero. Though what that means is if you use a virgin plastic, it's made from extracted oil that came out the ground. And so you've got a CO2 footprint of drilling for oil, fracking, turning it into plastic. If we use a recycled waste material, the CO2 saving is the difference between using a virgin plastic and a recycled plastic. albeit there's a little bit of CO2 given off in the recycling process. But if you grow a plant, plants photosynthesize, so they take in CO2 from the atmosphere and give off oxygen. so they're completely... We basically proved that each pot was 26 grams CO2 saving. There's very few products that can do that. That's yeah, that's amazing. Because yeah, not only are you reducing the amount of the CO2 by changing the way that you're processing it, but then actually you're doing it by the things that you're then growing, and then kind of counterbalancing it. Yeah. So and then it went from there. And then we ended up doing a number of big projects. So we started off initially, recyclers only wanted to work with rope and net from harbors. We did a big beach cleanup. We did all the rope and fishing net from Edinburgh to the Scottish borders for World Ocean Cleanup Day. And I said to recyclers, look, it was very much Based on a relationship with trust, but the material that we're collecting here is cleaner than the stuff that's coming out the harbour. So we ran a trial, recycled over one ton of that and that went into Blooming Wild. And then the year after that, we did it just over a ton from the beaches on the Isle of Olver, which is off the west coast of And then the year after that, just did it, so which was last year, we did a project with the communities on Egg, Muck, Rum, Canna, Coll and Skye. They removed over 10 tons of plastic waste from their own beaches. of which 1.7 tonnes we took to Malick Harbour, recycled and made it into a pot. And then last week we made a pot for the Isle of Egg tree nursery. So the pots were branded up and went back to the Isle of Egg. That's about as perfect a circular economy as you can get. That is an amazing circular. And having so many people involved in that as well, you know, it's something that the community wants and needs and you're not only facilitating it, but actually producing something off the back of it too. Yeah, so the Isle of Egg tree nursery is growing trees to reforest its own island from its own trees. saplings basically. Oh, brilliant. Fantastic. So let's let's bring Anna in here then how did you guys meet and you know start your collaboration and let's talk about the beach cleans. Yeah, do you want to give us a bit of an overview? Well, yeah, so I've been an interior designer for nearly 35 years and Seven years ago, I was approached by a production company and asked to be a judge on Scotland's Home of the Year, which was quite a career pivot at the age of 50 to become a TV presenter. And a lot of really fantastic opportunities came through as part of that, one of which was winning in category of interiors and design. Scottish influencer of the year, 22, 23. And through that, I was then contacted by a number of brands who were interested in getting me to influence for them. I think Ali and I have realized that our minds work in quite similar ways. So my mind led straight to, well, if people want to pay me to sell their stuff, why don't I make my own stuff? So I started my own, um, brand of interiors, homewares, all made in Scotland, all made sustainably and working with a lot of different companies. And a lot of really, I mean, was a total learning curve for me as somebody who's basically been buying things for clients for 35 years to then actually designing products to sell to other people. a total kind of switch. Completely flipped. Yes. Because of my interest in sustainability, not only in my brand, but in my interior design practice, I was contacted by the Glasgow Chamber of Commerce to be keynote speaker at their COB 24 conference, a Glasgow climate conference. And as part of that, Ali and I were both speaking at one particular event, which was to young people, school children. And so we met there, and we just started chatting, didn't we? Yeah. Oh, great. Yeah. You just found that you had you were kindred spirits. Yeah. Yeah, it was about 300 skilled children, think, SWG3. But that was a bit rowdy. You know what? You could have heard a pin drop. were absolutely fascinated by both of our talks and I was quite it was really, really amazing and that really good questions as well afterwards and and Yeah. And then Ali was like, well, we should do something together. Yeah. So we arranged to meet up in a coffee shop, didn't we? Yeah, we met for scones, actually. Scones? nice. But at the time, it wasn't even a discussion about creating a product. It was just a case of, we go for a coffee? Yeah. And then we arranged a coffee. And then we were having a chat about different stuff, ideas. And then we're like, oh. And then it was pretty organic. The best ideas generally are organic. yeah. Definitely over spawned. Yeah. And I was like, you want to do a pot? No. Right. Okay. Let's do this. No. And I was like, I was actually thinking of, well, it's quite nerve wracking and pitching interior design ideas to the most of Scotland's home of the year. Apparently when it's not in my field, I was a bit nervous, but I was thinking of things that would mold well. And I like re-imagining. traditional design, which is what our pots are based on. And so I had the idea of flying ducks and my Nana always had flying ducks. And I suggested flying ducks and Nana straight away said, no, but what about flying swallows? And then... it's funny we got there, but Anna had a vintage flying swallow in her kitchen that she'd had. And she's also got tattoos of swallows on her hands. And the nautical theme of swallows fits a lot better than ducks. from there, Anna actually ran home from the coffee shop. and got this enameled swallow that was on the wall in our kitchen. And that was where it started basically. But at that point, it was still just a nice idea and a nice collaboration. don't think we'd ever envisaged it would be as successful as it was so far in such a short space of time. I've got the newest one here. Oh, beautiful. Yeah. So I mean, I think at the time we thought it would just be like a nice story that we would create just you know, a handful of them and it would be nice idea for socials and stuff. wasn't with an intention for it to be an actual business idea going forward. And obviously I've always really loved swallows and I had some swallow products already in my range. the thing that I love about them is they always return home. They return home to nest in the same place. every year and they're so tiny and they're so brave and they're so resilient and then obviously swallows have the reason why swallowed tattoos are important is that sailors would have them tattooed on their hands for a number of reasons but the one that I like most is that it would ensure that they would get home if they had swallows tattooed on them then they would get home reliably the way that swallows always do. Yeah. sentiments. And they're just beautiful creatures as well, aren't they? When you look at just the shape of them is so elegant and just gliding. I don't think we realised how important they are to so many people until we started this. We get a lot of messages from people who are quite symbolic for quite a lot of people. Really resonate. Yeah. It's nice when you have an idea that it's almost because there is no agenda. there isn't a huge amount of pressure on it and you can have a bit of fun and you can really explore the idea and make it something so wonderful because you're not thinking, oh gosh, what if, or should we do it like this? And decisions become much more natural rather than feeling time pressured or thinking, oh, what will people think when actually you're just having fun and creating something lovely. The market research was effectively the doing. And yeah, and so we didn't even, we just each launched them on our Instagram, didn't we? Yeah, yeah. We actually worked with a third product designer called Joe, who I'd met at Chelsea, and he was involved with the Trunke. And he's quite fantastic. And so we put this brief together. From my point of view, really nice working with a designer because I'm a lot more practical on the tooling side. and I lead in the design side. And from that collaborative team, worked really well. So we wrote a brief, gave it to Joe, and we had these meetings back and forth and created some prototypes. But it came about pretty quick. then from there, we designed a mold for our own small machine in the house, which allows us to, once again, a viable product. And then straight away, the V &A were interested. And so our first stockist was the V &A, the Design Museum of Scotland. And did you go out to them or did they find you? We were already having conversations with them. So Ocean Plastic Pots is stocked in their new exhibition, which launches in two weeks' time, which is about gardening. So I was already an existing stockist. So you just let them know that you had something new? Yeah, but Anna's already got a good relationship with the V &A via design. So from that point of view. Yeah, but I mean, they ordered pretty quickly. I was quite taken aback. And from there, it's been successful for the V &A. we actually, think we should talk, so Anna's brand is based around both Lundy and Malin, which are shipping forecast areas. So the initial swallows were made in red, blue, and green, which is the color of fourth Lundy and Malin. And we sourced fish boxes from those different shipping areas. So ones on the East Coast, the fourth ones on the West Coast. And so they represented three shipping areas. The first swallows that we launched, which were red, blue, and green, to tie into Anna's brand. So we launched them just before Christmas. And then they went on to be used as corporate gifts. So Anna does lot of corporate work. They were used for the social and influences done at Social Hub in Glasgow. And then from there, we were pretty busy through Christmas. And then going into January, we had the, when we met you at the trade show at the SECC, which is Scotland's trade show. So we thought we'll take the swallows along with the pots we were exhibiting to see what the interest would be. then Anna and I planned a beach clean together. So we do it organically, but I would like to do it most Fridays, go and do a beach clean down in Trun. So we actually spent a day together. We went down to Trun, did a beach clean. and took the same philosophy as where we started at the pots, was just to whatever we could pick up from the beach, sort it into the right plastic type, wash it, shred it, and then mold it into swallows. And then we did the trade show and then in February we launched these beach swallows, which are made organically from beach plastic we collected ourselves in it. The reception was really positive. Do you find you collect quite a lot of plastic when you're doing the sort of the weekly ones? Obviously, they sort of started with the huge sort of disaster, I guess, of the huge amount of plastic that you found that really spearheaded this. But now you're quite regularly. are you still finding you having to go to different beaches? Not have to. But are you finding that actually there's still a huge amount of plastic coming up, even though you do it regularly? Yeah, I mean, the sort of beach cleanings on a week that do ourselves are not to go and collect plastic. It's an organic thing, but it seems to be the rentless. Yeah, I've done 24 tonne. roped in fishing net myself in terms of processing the pellet in Scotland. It's insane just to think you're just in Scotland, know, just one whole area of the world to have that much. Yeah and I've witnessed a beach on Islay Skye that was a metre deep in fishing net. You don't realise this, I can send you aerial photographs but I it was about 10 tonnes removed from that beach. Yeah I'd love to see the photo, I think it's a real eye-opener when you see it, especially when you think of places like the Islay Skye that has such a romantic side of beautiful, remote, people go there to just escape and you just don't expect to be faced with things like that. I think sharing more images of things like that just really awakens people to what's going on. Yeah, Yeah, it's quite frightening when you see it. It's always off the beaten track, but it's where tourism doesn't reach. That's what we think is really interesting about the swallows. So where the pots have a kind of active almost physical impact because you're growing a plant in them to reduce CO2. The swallows, because they have the story and the boxes are printed with the story, that people can really understand at a very kind of visceral level that this is a beautiful object made from something absolutely horrific that's happening in our oceans and that people put them on the walls in their home in flocks. I people have been buying them in multiples and creating huge blocks across the walls of their home that you know that then when people are visiting them in their home, they'll be talking about those swallows and where they're from. how they contribute to the climate emergency is encouraging conversation. So they are tiny little fluttering acts of activism. Yeah. As well as being kind of beautiful things to have in your home. Yeah. And you're right, you can't just have one of those. I mean, you could just have Yeah, yeah. lovely thing about them is that they make so much more of an impact when you have a whole wall of them. Yeah. And in your multiple colours, the Trune Beach ones in particular are very kind of variegated because obviously we can't control the colour of the plastic, so they have this beautiful marble bottle and each one is completely unique. people, I think that's part of what people have been so attracted to with those ones is that they know that each one is a one of a kind, even though they are injection molded and so technically in some ways identical to each other. It's an interesting concept because from a product perception in plastic everything should be perfect every single time. We're basically saying to people we almost can't tell you what color your swallow will be but there's a reason for that and it because it comes from this plastic we collected ourselves. That's the more important conversation and the color of your swallow is less important and people really really resonate with that. Yeah, it's a natural process. Yeah, unnatural, natural. It's a virtual. It really took us by surprise how popular that concept was. in terms of manufacturing with beach plastic, it's a very rare thing. know, there's a lot of chat in the world about ocean plastic, but when you dig deep to have a company that manufactures with the plastic they collected themselves on the beach, there's very few people that can do that. And so as a result, Anna and I invested in a full injection molding tool that has been made right now and it's about to arrive at our factory in the Scottish Borders. That allows us to scale up production massively so we can then drive a lot more volume through this and recycle lot more material. In the minute we did that, then we had to register our company together. company together basically. Brilliant, brilliant. mean, it's, such an amazing product range and has so many values and meanings on so many, so many levels. I think that was going to be my next question then Ali, what's your ambition for the brand? And, know, are there any particular retailers that you would love to be stocked in or love to sort of have, you know, an affiliation with to sit back with all your values of this amazing business that you've built? I think We've proved the concept. We've done it for a number of retailers and we can give the data. But I think the next step now, we'd love to put it into a nationwide retailer with 70 plus stockists. we've now got the capability to do big volume. We've got the packaging dialed in. That's the next step for us. That'll be in the next few months, looking for that right retail. The partner needs to be right, but that'd be really exciting to see that. totally agree with that. Lindsay and I are all about always talking about making sure you've got the right product in the right retailer, because you could go out and you could get it stocked somewhere. Yeah. It needs to be something that resonates with you because you need to make sure that your customers align and you've got the right people coming because otherwise it... It doesn't tell the right story and you don't see the volumes that you should be seeing and you shouldn't, you're not getting the reach that you should be getting. So it's all about definitely identifying that right retailer for that product. And it's not the same for every product. No, no, definitely not. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's exciting to see you guys enter into that stage now. And so in terms of you're saying that it's now a scalable product, what's the sort of volumes that you can now produce? What's the scalability of it? I mean, I think the first production run for us will be about 6,000. We can scale to 20, 30 thousands. Totally, And will you be editing at trade shows? I know you said you were at the one in January in Scotland. Have you got plans for the rest of this year that would be interesting to tell our listeners about? We haven't actually. I'd love to say we had this massive master plan written out, but we don't. It all sounds like it's been quite an organic journey anyway, doesn't it? So it's like, you know, I think that back to being with the right retailer, it's not the right fit, then all that organic creation would have been wasted. So it's about finding the right, you know, finding the right pairing. Do know, it's really interesting, it's like Anna and I, through this process, have discovered that We've basically have the exact same thought process about, it's scarily happened so many times. Yeah. Absolutely mind boggling. Yeah, it's weird. It's really That's why this works, though. know? Yeah. And so we've been like, should we go out and get investors? nah, because if we get investors, then we have to answer to people. Yeah. And then it's not fun. You don't want to do that. I don't want to have to answer to grownups, but it's part of the reason for working for yourself. So we'll not do that. And then it's like, you know, well, we could do that, but, you know, you know, Because it's not our sole, because it's a joint project and we've both got other interests, there isn't the same damning commercial pressure on this. Which is nice. Because then you can sit back and go enjoy it. I we had a meeting, didn't we, a couple of weeks ago where we get together and we have this like big kind of like brainstorming meetings. And a lot of the time we're playing catch up because, you know, keeping up with demand for the swallows has been really, really challenging with the hand making process and thinking about how to develop the brand and how, you know, what, what to do next. We sort of, we're sort of racing against, get kind of racing against the kind of popularity that the product already has. I had, I had a list of thoughts and, uh, Ali had a list of thoughts. And one of those was, um, I think we should make the swallow bigger. Yeah. Okay. And Ali had the same thing on his list. And then we were both like going, that's just freaky. Like how would you both think that? Yeah. So the new mold is slightly, slightly bigger than the original one, which was actually sized to suit the mold casing that Ali already had, because obviously it was just meant to be a little fun sort of promo experiment at beginning. yeah. Yeah. So what will be in the range now then if you can go bigger, is there going to be various sizes? How's the range? The new spoil that's coming is slightly bigger, it's 12 centimeters. And I think we'll gauge the reaction to that and maybe look at going bigger again. And then maybe bringing back the small one as well. Yeah, I really like the small ones. do wish they fit in the palm of your hand, but that's a big financial thing to have. three molds, you know, and actually they do work so well as a flock when they're all the same size because of the color variation that automatically happens, you get enough variety without changing the size of them. yeah, that's something that we'll, we'll keep an eye on, think. Fantastic. So other than going to your website, is there anywhere where people can go and have a little look at your range? Could you give us a bit of an overview of where you're stopped in at the moment? So at the moment we're selling them to direct to customers from each of our websites. from Anna Campbell Jones dot com and from oceanplasticpots.com dot com indeed. And yeah, well, Ali, you know, you've got a list of retailers in your head. Yeah. So we looked at the VRA. by servicing the V &A and we've got a gift shop called Oole and Rowe. We've got two other gift shops. all honesty, there's a bit of a waiting list from retailers. And we can't meet demand at the moment for the retailers. And we chose to service the existing stockists rather than get some more. Ocean Plastic Pots got up to, we were at one point stocking 150 retailers in the UK. And we had stockists, we still do have stockists in South Korea, America, Spain, Italy. And all of those existing customers are a potential market for the smalls as well. it's a reason for scaling. fantastic. So terms of future plans for the range, are you planning on bringing out a new range every season? What are you guys thinking? I know you don't really are, aren't really planning like, you know, is there an idea from a range design perspective? Yeah, I mean, I think I can see that once we are finally volume manufacturing, we can start to look at actual color tones. This is where Anna puts me under pressure when we start talking about Pantones. And I get well out my depth at that point. yeah. Pantone. Why are so many people so scared by that word? Yeah. There's probably look at that. So yeah, I mean, I think what we've realized as well is that the narrative, the narrative aspect of like the true swallows and the fact that the Lundy Mallon and fourth swallows that the plastic was so directly traceable to where it was from, has given us ideas about other sources of plastic, whether they're so from the kind of corporate side, they are will be businesses that have their own plastic waste. They could give us that we could then make into swallows that then they can use as corporate gifting to their customers and clients so that they can help reduce their impact on the planet. yeah, mean, Ali, you were just saying to me this morning, you're speaking to somebody about who's got other sources of plastic. So whether there's... There's this film canisters, for example, that you've got, like that we could do. We can do a range of swallows that are made from recycled film canisters, and then that's a different story. So then you've got people that are interested in film or photography, then that's saying a story to them that with this so many different ways that we can weave a story that resonates with somebody just very simple object. The swallows give you so if you're a beaker. Everyone tells the customers like we have B Corp. This is our sustainability statement. But what we actually give you is a physical product to demonstrate to your customers in the story of your sustainability credentials. And it's very difficult to do that. I've been through the unit, going through all my bags of different recycled material that we've got left. And so we did a project two years ago. We recycled all the plant pots from BBC Gardeners World Live at the end of the show. And I've got 10, 15 kilos of that pellet. swallows from plant pots that came from BBC Gardeners World Live. Oh, wow. Amazing. But you've got the concept of somebody coming to say Chelsea Flower Show and taking a swallow made from plant pots that came from a previous Chelsea Flower Show. Came from there. So keeping those events circular as well. Yeah. In terms of the waste management, are there different types of plastic that you can recycle and types that you can't? Is there a particular type that you look for? How do you sort of sort the plastic? We only work with polypropylene and HDPE. So polypropylene is the same as a yogurt carton. If you look on the bottom of any plastic carton, it'll have the recycling symbol and the number. And this is brilliant for children. So a yogurt carton is number five and a milk bottle, which is HDPE is number two. All plastics have a relative density. So that means that relative density relative to water. So what it means is, A lot of recyclers use water to separate plastic polymers and polypropylene and HDPE float on water where engineering polymers which are heavier than water will sink. What you find is the seed is this naturally and that lot of plastics and wash up at the beach are polypropylene and HDPE because they float on water and less than a drinks bottle that's got any cavity and it floats. It's doing it naturally as well. There's a natural waste management sort of. Yeah. system going in. What it means is the really nasty stuff's on the seabed and we'll never get to it which is quite sad but... Which is a very sad way of looking at it. But that's the sort of material we can work with. Interesting. Great. It's nice to see there's some real amazing range of Alicia that you could get in there because obviously when you get into a multiple retailer they are wanting to look at brands and products that are going to be bringing newness sort of every year or whatever like that so there's so many ideas that you could come up with. So lastly, well, one last question or Kate's probably got a few more. What's been your favourite moment during this whole process and meeting and collaborating on this amazing range? Put you on the spot there. Yeah, I really enjoyed the beach clean. Yeah. And then going to the SECC and we built the stand together. So we had a whole day. And we went to Trin and then we packed the van up, went to the SECC, like any small business start up business does. And then we built the stand together. We had the whole day and it was really good to do that. Yeah, it was just, yeah, we both felt incredibly buoyed up with being by the sea in January. And was actually it was quite a nice day. It was all a blustery and we felt like we were we were doing something. We were saving the world. It was yeah. And then and then it the SEC exhibition was so good and we had so many people coming to the stand, like almost people queuing up. just walked past and just, their eyes just lashed in the swallow and they just kind of drawn in and just want to ask questions, want to find out more about what it is. And yeah, that was really fantastic. And I recorded a really beautiful piece of audio, a kind of storytelling audio, which is going to be incorporated into the... packaging going forward with a little QR code where people can hear the kind of the story of what swallows mean, but also the story of our collaboration. And this idea of introducing audio into the products is quite a new one working with a company called The Big Light. It's called Activate Audio. So I think that's something that we'll enjoy developing going forward as well to sort of create the story and the atmosphere and the and the feeling around the product. Yeah, that will really enhance the product, won't it? In terms of being feeling a lot more personal, being able to hear you talk about it. It's one thing reading it, but when you hear a human voice telling you about something, it can really help you to identify with the product even more. I love how the sort of the sustainability of it just and the environmental aspect just runs through the veins of everything that you're doing. Yeah. It's just so natural. And I would encourage so many more businesses to be looking at kind of how can they be more sustainable with the way that they work. So I've got kind of two questions really here. One would be, what advice maybe would you give to other sort of businesses that either already are being sustainable, but they don't really know how to talk about it. So what are your kind of advice there? Or if they're not yet, how should they start thinking about it? Is there any advice you have for companies to kind of maybe pivot towards being more sustainable? To not see sustainability as, or being sustainable as a problem, but more to see it as an opportunity, as a way to refine how you make decisions about what you make. Yeah, have it as a kind of a core question. And as you're developing things, sort of just sort of almost checking back with yourself, like how, what's the impact of this decision that I'm making? Yeah, absolutely. And I always say, you you do what you can. It's impossible to be perfect, but you do what you can and with good intention. And are there sort of other brands and retailers out there that you admire right now that you think are doing, doing good? positive impact that you would like to shine a light on? Amy Bretton. Yep. Bretton Scotland. And she's working incredibly hard with her business to make things in Scotland and to be as close to zero carbon as possible and using local manufacturing. And I think that's a really big, a really, really big thing. it's quite hard to things to buy that have actually been made in the UK. Not just assembled or? Yeah, just sort of label stuff on them afterwards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm good friends with Andy Pennick of Hawes Watering Cans. They are the oldest watering can company in the world. And I've been to the factory in Blackheath in Birmingham and they've got 50 staff. still manufacturing watering cans from tin, which is beautiful. So I would give them a mention definitely. I love that. I love the of shining a spotlight on others that you also think are doing well and just think of more people are doing positive, you know, kind of positive retail things. Yeah. Waterhole sunglasses as well, I would give them a mention too. Harriet Waterhole was a young lad who started sunglasses made from broken fishing net. phenomenal things based out of Cornwall. So it's definitely worth a mention. There's so many amazing people out there, isn't there? It's like Kate said, shining the light. Well, guys, is there anything else that you want to tell our listeners about your brand? I know we've kind of covered everything and... So my yellow wellies became like a symbol of the brand, right? And I basically didn't like companies that bought photographs from photo stock libraries. And I kind of made this... subconscious decision that I wouldn't use any imagery on the business unless I'd the photograph myself. So unless you've seen the problem for yourself, I think it's difficult for you to talk about it authentically. so the way that I did that, I had these lucky yellow wellies that I used to wear when I was saturation diving in North Sea. And so I started taking photographs of the problem of ocean plastic using my yellow wellies as a stamp of awesome disability that was me that took the photograph. And that that symbolism has continued through. And I think it's a very important thing for the brand in that you can go and see lots of brands talking about ocean plastic, but there's very few brands who have actually going to see the problem for themselves and try to tackle that problem. I think it's a big thing. It's interesting. It's another example of how our minds kind of align because when I've also chosen to photograph all my products myself and quite like the kind of low tech accessible feel that that gives that it's, it's kind of direct. It's from me to, to my customers. It's this, there's no kind of like marketing team or gloss. And I very often have my hands in the photographs, like holding the object. And then I have my, my swallow, my swallow tattoo. So now Ali and I were doing photographs where they've actually got his yellow wellies and my swallow. tattoos like in the same in the same photograph and then we've used this this I've got a few different swallows but we've used this one as part of our logo for our branding. We had a lot of conversations about what we would call our new company because obviously our two separate companies are very much to do with what we each personally do and we called it return voyage. Yeah. Ali has returned from the sea as a saturation diver to create products on land. The plastic has returned from the sea to create products that people can have in their home and then swallows. I identify with swallows and my own brand is all inspired by the ocean and by dazzle camouflage and all things to do with the sea. So we thought Return Voyage was a very poetic and hopeful name for our new company. Yeah, it's Love that. It's so authentic. And it just it runs as I said earlier, but it just like just runs through the veins of both of your personalities, your businesses and and and that's a wonderful way for it to all to come together. Yeah, fantastic. So would say if there's any large scale retailers out there, any buyers listening, do contact the guys quickly because I know they're probably going to have their doors being knocked out by several, several companies. And yeah, we'll share all of the information on our show notes of how to contact you and where your stock is and how people can go and have a sort of touch and feel of your products. And just want to say absolutely thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We've really enjoyed listening to your story. I echo that. Thank you so much for sharing everything. It's been such lovely. Yeah. So lovely to hear all of this from you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having us. Thanks again. thank you for having us. Take care. If you're a product-based business, whether it's home or accessories, plant pots or jewellery, or any other product for that matter, as we have experience in over 35 product categories, then you might be interested to know that we have created a retail-ready bootcamp just for you. Are you ready to land in retail stores, scour with confidence, or finally understand what buyers really want? We've created a six week intensive programme built for businesses and brands like yours designed by us, two former head of buyings with over 30 years of combined experience in retail. Each week we'll run a live one hour session covering everything you need to become retail ready. We'll cover topics such as how to refine your offer to meet buyers expectations, nailing your pricing for profit, finding the right stockists. building your go-to-market and trade strategy, leveraging relationships to grow, and how to manage orders, stock, and retail partnerships like a pro, and so much more. You'll also get a one-to-one session with us for tailored brand feedback, our retail readiness toolkit to take away with you, and access to a WhatsApp group for community, collaboration, and accountability. We don't just teach. We open up the floor each session for honest collaborative discussions with other ambitious businesses. So if you're tired of guessing what buyers want, this is the time to find out. The next cohort starts in June and places are limited. Head to www.buyingandbeyond.co.uk forward slash bootcamp to join. See you there. If you've enjoyed listening to this episode, please please please like and subscribe and leave a review. And if you already have, thank you thank you thank you. We all need a bit of retail therapy and this is the perfect time for you to offload about that super cringe-worthy story. We would love to hear from you all, your funny stories and experiences or even any dilemmas and maybe we can help or at least find someone who can. And don't worry, we will keep these anonymous and remove any names and brands. We would also love to hear from you on any topics you would like us to talk about. Please send all of these into buyingandbeyond at gmail.com or drop us a DM via our Instagram page at BuyingAndBeyond. Kate, are you a drama queen? No. Drama just makes things interesting. That's true. All these thoughts and opinions are our own and based on our own experiences working for a wide variety of retailers. These are all in the hope to entertain and educate and not to reflect negatively on any place we currently or have previously worked.